top of page
  • Writer's pictureFred Litwin

"JFK: Destiny Betrayed" Misleads on Supposed Extra Bullet

Screen shot from JFK: Destiny Betrayed

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary series, JFK: Destiny Betrayed, alleges that an extra bullet was found in JFK's limousine the evening of the assassination. Here is an excerpt from a transcript: (26:05 in the third episode)

Whoopi Goldberg: As it turns out, there was an extra bullet, and it was misshapen. After the assassination, the motorcade raced to Parkland Hospital, where the emergency room doctors tried to save the President's life. After he was pronounced dead, Kennedy's personal physician, George Burkley, got in contact with his assistant, James Young, in the White House and told him to prepare for the autopsy.

Dr. Randolph Robertson: It was James Young who ordered Chiefs Mills and Martinell, their assistants, to go to the White House and retrieve what they knew were skull fragments in the limousine at that time.

Whoopi Goldberg: The Presidential limousine, while en route to Washington, was inspected, and a three-inch triangular piece of bone was discovered on the floor near the rear jump seat. During the autopsy, Young sent his two assistants to meet the limo when it arrived at the White House garage.

Dr. Randolph Robertson: And they brought back an additional envelope with the bullet with the bent tip. He described the bullet, brass-colored, about five millimeters in diameter.

Whoopi Goldberg: As part of a Naval oral history project, Jan Herman, who had interviewed Dr. Young on this subject, got in touch with Thomas Mills, one of the two man who had gone to the limo to retrieve the skull fragments.

Dr. Randolph Robertson: Jan Herman called up Mills, says "hey do you remember Dr. Young calling you, asking about this bent bullet?" He said, "yeah I remember that, him calling me, and, y'know, he remembered it." He says, "can you shed any light on it?" And he says, "I would rather not talk about that."

Oliver Stone: You know what happened to this bullet?

Dr. Randolph Robertson: It went from Mills and Martinell to Young to Humes, it disappears. That evening, there may have been as little as four people who saw that bullet before it disappeared.

Whoopi Goldberg: The reports of this extra bullet substantiate some researchers' claim that there was a fourth shot hitting the limo at Zapruder frame 328.

Screen shot from JFK: Destiny Betrayed

This started in December of 2000 when James Young wrote Gerald Ford:

Ford wrote back to Young:

Young sat down for an oral history project:

You can download the interview here.

oral history with young
Download PDF • 4.45MB

Here is an excerpt from page 45 which few people discuss:

Robert Kennedy gave the orders? I don't know if this is true, but conspiracy theorists never mention this.

Young discusses sending Chiefs Mills and Martinell to the limousine: (page 51)

Young says that "the envelope contained three pieces of skull bone, one about three inches in diameter, and another two inches in diameter, and the third one about one to one and a half inches in diameter. It also contained a brass slug about half a centimeter in diameter and distorted."

My first impression upon reading this is that they found a fragment.

The 'bullet' or fragment could have been copper: (page 54)

So, what really happened here? Did Young actually see the so-called bullet? He was supposedly at Bethesda when the limousine was searched.

In the early morning hours of November 23rd, FBI Agent Robert Frazier carried out a forensic examination of the limousine. He found an impact point on the interior surface of the windshield as shown in the photo at left. It was characterized by Frazier as showing both a lead smear and a crack in the rear-facing surface of the glass. During his examination, Frazier was led to two large fragments found earlier by Secret Service agents in the front seat area of the limousine. They were subsequently found to have been fired from Oswald’s rifle. One—Commission Exhibit 567—appears to be made up largely of exposed lead. These items of evidence establish a likely narrative: A bullet from the alleged Oswald rifle strikes the back of the President’s head, sending fragments into John Connally’s right wrist, CE 567 into the windshield where it left a left a lead smear and caused a windshield flare, and finally a final fragment striking a rear-facing chrome strip above the windshield.

So, Paul Paterni and Dan Boring accompanied Mills and Martinell to the White House garage. One fragment was found in the front seat "in the area between left and right front seats," and another fragment "on the floor in front of the right front seat." These fragments were turned over to the FBI and are known as Exhibits Q2 and Q3.

Here is a picture of Q3:

Here is Aguilar, DeSalles, and Simpich's analysis:

Dr. Young said the envelope containing three skull fragments “also contained a brass

slug about half a centimeter in diameter and distorted.” The diameter of CE 569 is, of

course, “about half a centimeter in diameter” at exactly 6.5 millimeters. It is made up of only copper jacket material and therefore might easily appear to be “brass.” One end of it is obviously “distorted,” as in the description Dr. Young provided. Dr. Young used the term the term “slug” to describe it and it is on this term that Robertson builds his case that a “whole bullet” was found in the limousine.

The Columbia Dictionary of the English Language (2nd Edition Unabridged) lists 17

different meanings for “slug” of which two might conceivably apply to CE 569. Meaning #4 defines “slug” as “a piece of lead or other metal for firing from a gun.” Meaning #5 defines “slug” as “any heavy piece of crude metal.” Meaning #4 might conceivably apply to a whole projectile while Meaning #5 would more likely apply to a substantial fragment.

Now with the whole story of what happened in the White House garage fully

described in various reports, whatever Dr. Young thought he was seeing is rendered

irrelevant. We know what happened. It was not just Martinelli and Mills who searched the limousine. They were given permission to search the limousine by Deputy Chief of the Secret Service Paul Paterni who then accompanied them along with Assistant SAIC Floyd Boring. Chief Thomas Mills found Q3 “on the floor in front of the right front seat.” Q3, along with Q2, were sent along to the FBI Laboratory and, as we saw, are mentioned in an FBI Report to Chief of Police Jesse Curry of Dallas on November 23, 1963.

No “non-fragmented bullet with a bent tip” ever existed. Robertson made up its

existence out of an ambiguity in Young’s use of the term “slug.” No “complete bullet” was ever found in the limousine. Dr. Young was referring to Q3, later designated C3, and even later designated CE 569

It's really unclear to me whether Dr. Young really saw the fragment. Did Mills and Martinell actually bring the fragment to Bethesda? Possibly, but here is an excerpt of testimony from Robert Frazier:

I can understand the bone fragments being delivered to Humes and Boswell. But were the two bullet fragments also sent to Bethesda? It's certainly not part of the chain of possession, and I might add that Young is not listed as being in the autopsy room. He certainly might have been at Bethesda, somewhere in the building, but if an envelope was delivered to Humes, it might not have come from Young.

Viewers of JFK: Destiny Betrayed deserve to know the full facts about this supposed bullet.

It is nice to see that one of the experts in JFK: Destiny Betrayed (Dr. Gary Aguilar) has debunked another one of the experts in JFK: Destiny Betrayed (Dr. Randy Robertson). Unfortunately, viewers of the so-called documentary series have no idea that its own experts can't even agree with one another.

Previous Relevant Blog Posts on JFK: Destiny Betrayed

"JFK: Destiny Betrayed" alleges the CIA was involved in an assassination plot against French President Charles de Gaulle. Scenes from a fictional film are used to buttress the allegation. The truth - the CIA had nothing to do with the supposed plot.

The evidence is clear - Robert Kennedy wanted Allen Dulles on the Warren Commission.

Jim Garrison is AWOL in Oliver Stone's so-called documentary JFK: Destiny Betrayed.

Previous Relevant Blog Posts on JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass

Oliver Stone is disappointed that no major movie or TV reviewers have commented on his so-called documentary.

Yes, Oliver Stone is an alterationist.

James Kirchick's terrific article on Oliver Stone and homosexuality.

Just when I thought conspiracy theorists couldn't get any crazier.

Tracy Parnell debunks a series about JFK Revisited on the WhoWhatWhy website, and Andrew Jackson debunks the film on Quora. Both articles are well worth your time.

Did Saundra Spencer really develop a completely different set of autopsy photographs?

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary tries to make the case that a White House photographer took photos at the autopsy. The only problem is that there is no evidence he was actually there.

Stone misspeaks on the Joe Rogan show about JFK's brain.

Stone misspeaks on the Joe Rogan show and I present a challenge to conspiracy theorists.

Tracy Parnell dissects Morley's article on JFK assassination documents and "JFK Revisited"

Did President Kennedy actually say that he was going to shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the wind?

David Talbot claims that JFK told the French Ambassador that he was not in full control of his entire government. There is no evidence he ever said that.

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary claims the CIA supported the 1961 coup attempt against French President Charles de Gaulle in 1961. The only thing missing is evidence.

Max Boot: Oliver Stone just can't stop spreading lies about JFK's assassination.

Did Gerald Ford really disclose to French President Valery Giscard D'Estaing that the JFK assassination was a conspiracy? Perhaps not.

Robert Kennedy, Jr. believes in a massive conspiracy regarding Covid and the intelligence agencies.

While Gerald Ford edited some language in the Warren Report, he did not change the location of the back wound. Autopsy photographs show exactly the location of the back wound.

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary alleges that Oswald was "moved" to Dallas and "placed" in the Texas School Book Depository. This is totally ridiculous.

The preponderance of the evidence indicates JFK's throat wound was one of exit.

There is no evidence that there was actually a plot against JFK in Chicago.

Gochenaur's writings don't back up his allegations in JFK Revisited.

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary claims that Guy Banister gave Oswald a room at 544 Camp Street. The evidence does not support the allegation.

Dr. Robert Kirschner's consultation with the ARRB explains a mystery in the documentary.

JFK Revisited makes a big deal about the weight of JFK's brain and ignores a non-conspiratorial explanation.

Oliver Stone's so-called documentary makes it sound like the autopsy photographer said that he did not take the photos of JFK's brain that are in the current inventory,

Oliver Stone took to Twitter last weekend to bemoan the fact that the mainstream press is ignoring his so-called documentary, JFK Revisited: Through the Looking Glass.

There is something really obscene about Oliver Stone once again going after Clay Shaw.

You won't learn everything you need to know about Connally's position on the shots from Oliver Stone's so-called documentary.

Oliver Stone tries to make it seem like Marina Porter has denied taking the backyard photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Oliver Stone once again raises the issue of the legitimacy of the backyard photographs of Lee Harvey Oswald.

This post debunks every witness that has ever claimed Shaw was Bertrand.

He cannot imagine any sort of non-conspiratorial explanations for any of the suspicious pieces of evidence in his film.

No, Clay Shaw was not a "contract agent."

Steve Roe Blog Posts on JFK Revisited

An exchange of letters between James DiEugenio and Jeremy Gunn of the ARRB.

There is some 'interesting' editing in Oliver Stone's so-called documentary.

JFK Revisited Screen Writer Crawfishes on Dallas to Chicago Airmail Overnight Delivery James DiEugenio changes his story on the Klein's money order.

Conspiracy theorist James DiEugenio doesn't understand the history of the mail deliver in the United States.

The truth about Jack Ruby and the FBI.

"Stone/DiEugenio hatch another Bogus Mystery with Sinister Strap/Sling Mounts on Oswald's Rifle"

Oliver Stone claims that Oswald could not have been in the sniper's nest on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Steve Roe exposes Stone's mistakes.

In an interview on RT [Russia Today], Oliver Stone says that the throat wound might have been made by a flechette.

Steve Roe presents some examples of Oliver Stone's 'creative' abilities.

Oliver Stone distorts the testimony about Oswald's palmprint on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle.


Recent Posts

See All


Post: Blog2_Post
bottom of page