Jack Martin Tries to Entrap NBC
- Fred Litwin
- 2 hours ago
- 40 min read
In May 1967, Walter Sheridan was in New Orleans working on a documentary for NBC that would ultimately air in June. He was assisted by the local affiliate WDSU and Rick Townley was the reporter who helped him.
Here is the actual NBC documentary which was broadcast on June 19, 1967:
There are several phone calls on this tape -- all recorded by Jack Martin for Jim Garrison.
Martin phones Aaron Kohn of the Metropolitan Crime Commission; his lawyer Steven Plotkin, and Rick Townley of WDSU. Martin claims he has information that would seriously damage Jim Garrison's investigation and that Garrison would retaliate if he went public. So, Martin tries to get assurances of money for his defense, and some of sort of promise that NBC would back him up.
As you can see from the tape, there are no promises made to Martin. Kohn is very explicit that the only guideline he could give Martin was to tell the truth. Townley repeatedly says they don't pay people for information.
At the end of the tape, Martin dictates exactly what he was doing, and that he was going to feed a story to Townley while recording him at his house All he succeeded in doing was to prove that the Walter Sheridan and Rick Townley were honest men conducting an honest investigation.
The speaker is Jack Martin. This information here is to substantiate the fact that various people connected with a Garrison probe are being bought off by NBC. You hear that? Are being bought off by NBC or other persons involved, and there has been some [?} to corroborate this fact. When Mr. Townley calls at my house this evening, I intend to hang a story on him, a figment of imagination with several half-truths in it, that he'll believe what I have to say. To see whether or not, they'll buy or pay money or make promises for some type of something in compensation for this, and this is strictly an investigation to prove for Mr. Garrison and the court, the people, that what he's doing is absolutely right, and that these other people are trying to influence and entirely impede a legitimate and legal investigation. Anything I say to Mr. Townley can be taken with a grain of salt, because this is strictly a story that I'll have to hang on him and this will be transcribed, or we will attempt to transcribe this on a tape, which will be planted in a couch in my living room at the time he visits me at eight o'clock this evening
Here is the first telephone conversation -- Jack Martin with Aaron Kohn, head of the Metropolitan Crime Commission of New Orleans:
Unknown voice: This is a check to see if the machine is working properly, Testing one, two,
First phone call: (0:50)
Woman's voice: Hello.
Jack Martin: Is Mr. Kohn there, please?
Aaron Kohn: Yeah.
Jack Matin: Aaron? Sorry to bother you early in the morning.
Aaron Kohn: Oh, you're sorry to bother me.
Jack Martin: Yeah. However I got to call Rick Townley a just little before nine. You know Rick Townley with WDSU?
Aaron Kohn: Yeah.
Jack Martin: And what is your able counsel or advice, I won't say advice, but just want to chat with you before I talk with him. I talked with this boy -- he's called me several times. And as you know WDSU is compiling a background, or they might do a commentary on this Garrison business, you know.
Aaron Kohn: Uh-huh.
Jack Martin: Either way it goes, I'm going to be the shadowy figure again or something or other. That's probably the projection on it. Without doubt, without doubt or reservation, I could give the man a shit fit, worse than Novel [Gordon] ever did. I don't know whether to pursue it in that direction or exactly what to do.
Aaron Kohn: Jack, there's a time for telling the truth. Well, if you haven't been telling it in the past ...
Jack Martin: Well, that isn't necessarily the case.
Aaron Kohn: I don't know, I don't know what you said. All I know is there's a time for telling the truth, and you've gotten yourself into more trouble with playing around the edge of exaggeration,
Jack Martin: Well, there hasn't been any exaggeration to speak of. But the deal is that there's a lot more to the whole picture than ever been told. Without doubt, Garrison knows that I know a helluva lot more than I've ever said. You understand?
Aaron Kohn: Hmm.
Jack Martin: And I could, but I didn't want to ... I don't want to start on anything.
Aaron Kohn: You don't want to start .. You started something four years ago.
Jack Martin: Well, I know. But five, five years, I didn't start it. I started a long time before then. The thing is that without doubt I can probably give him the worst time than Novel and a half a dozen other people could, probably ...
Aaron Kohn: Jack, you keep talking about giving people bad time. Why don't you just settle down for once, in a long time, on saying something just because it's true, and forget about ...
Jack Martin: Well, it is .. I mean it's a whole picture, you see, it's a whole picture, you know, and it would probably, without any doubt at all, it would bring another fellow in, if he'll talk, you know ...
Aaron Kohn: What?
Jack Martin: It'll bring at least one other fellow, if not two others, into it. If they'll talk, it'll bring everything to an abrupt halt. I mean an abrupt halt. I've got some things that are pretty big I could talk about, but ... it would probably bring this whole thing to an abrupt halt. But I still wouldn't want, I don't want to. The trouble is that if I do this, I'll be fighting Garrison, you understand, or you'll jump all over me. He'll give me a worse time than he ever gave [Gordon] Novel. He says, I'll give him the magnitude of my trouble -- it will be a helluva lot greater than Novel's. I gotta, I gotta, I just have to be at the tender mercies of Mr. Garrison, unless some people will give me some backing on it, you know. I don't know how strong, I'll be standing out there alone, alone like a sore thumb. We're a pimple on a house tit, well, I don't want that to happen to me.
Aaron Kohn: You're not going to be standing out alone if you tell the truth, because the truth ties together. The trouble with what's been going on now there's been many many lies that create a structure of ...
Jack Martin: Well, you see, the thing that I have told, the only thing is that the man might have known Oswald, and at the same time, I had not told the FBI, the Secret Service, that I had known that he knew him. You know, which is true. I mean it was two minor occasions but, without doubt, the man knew Oswald, and that's all. But there were ...
Aaron Kohn: What old man knew Oswald?
Jack Martin: Dave [Ferrie], you know, which is true. He did - so what. He's met him. He'd run into him. He knew him, and that's all. That's all I have been able to give Garrison. That's all I have given him so far. But I haven't given him anything that other people haven't, you see. But there's some other -- that doesn't mean anything You could have met him. That doesn't mean a damn thing, you know. The man was in the city, and, but, the thing is that, of course, this has been more or less established -- good chance that he did know him. But there are other things that I could talk about and I say I could, I'm telling you what I know, give Mr. Garrison -- probably blow his whole investigation, especially if it would, it would naturally would involve one other person. That their word would probably be taken far more so than mine. They'd substantiate it. Then if another person would come in, I'll have to talk to them. It would doubly -- they'd have three different person there saying the same thing.
Aaron Kohn: Jack, the only thing I can say to you is you have a great propensity for getting yourself into trouble.
Jack Martin: Well, I'm already in trouble. There's nothing they can say about me that hasn't ..
Aaron Kohn: Now, just a minute. You have a great propensity for getting into trouble.
Jack Martin: Hmm mm.
Aaron Kohn: And I tell you that most of your trouble comes out of the fact that you play games constantly.
Jack Martin: I'm not playing any games.
Aaron Kohn: You play games constantly.
Jack Martin: I'm not playing games right this minute.
Aaron Kohn: You just love to drop out little bits of the truth and see how much trouble, confusion it can cause. Now the only thing I can say to you is, and you called me ...
Jack Martin: Yeah, okay.
Aaron Kohn: It's about time to just sit down and stop playing games with what might happen tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, because what has always happened to you tomorrow and the day after tomorrow is you've gotten into trouble yourself and your family by telling half-truths. By thinking that you're smarter than anybody else about what should be told and shouldn't be told. Now for cripes' sake, when are you going to start to just telling the whole truth, because it happens to be the truth as you know it? I think you'd find out you'd be in a lot less trouble than you get into the pattern of getting all the time.
Jack Martin: Well, that's what I'm trying to say, more or less, to the extent that this man has been bugging me over a period of time, therefore, this film interview you know ..
Aaron Kohn: I think, I think they're trying to get at the truth. And if you've got any truth to tell him, tell it to him, but tell it to him entirely. Stop playing games.
Jack Martin: The thing is, if I go ahead and give a whole picture on this thing, I said, I'm gonna wind up giving the man more trouble than Novel ever gave him in his life.
Aaron Kohn: I don't care about who gets ...
Jack Martin: And if I do that, well, he has, since in the last five months, this thing has both my wife and I financially, the only thing she's got now is her job down there, and she may not -- he might retaliate on that. I've got to have some assurance from some people that they'll -- they are not just going to leave me sitting out there like a whore's tit.
Aaron Kohn: If the whole truth comes out and it makes this man wrong, then I don't think anybody's going to have anything to worry about. The only thing that has made him strong is the backing he has gotten from people who are more concerned with fighting, fighting with their hate than they are at getting the truth. And it's about time that the whole truth came out, that the whole truth came out, nobody is going to have the ability to hurt anybody else. All the harm that's been done and all the people are getting hurt because of all the games that are being played with lies and half-truths. And you know it. The only strength this man has been has been that people have been feeding and backing him up in his lies and half-truths. Convinced the whole truth is given an opportunity for total projection. The strength that he has is built on ...
Jack Martin: Well, I'm not trying to be sophistic with you. You know I was trying to lay it on the line. I needed your counsel and I think you are telling me what you believe.
Aaron Kohn: It's about time we test the value of things as they are -- of the truth.
Jack Martin: Well one thing ...
Aaron Kohn: You've been encouraged by all your little games of feeding a little bit here and feeding a ...
Jack Martin: No, no, no. I wasn't, I wasn't, here's the thing -- when I spoke to the Secret Service I never told them about it. I just, says ... what was printed in that damn report and I got a copy of it. They didn't verify one bit of their synopsis. They didn't check anything -- they just simply verbatim printed the words of David W. Ferrie in their synopsis. And that strictly isn't according to Hoyle as far as the investigation is to be pursued. You know it.
Aaron Kohn: Stop trying to run the world.
Jack Martin: I'm not. I'm not trying to run the world. But what I'm trying to say is there's nothing that they could say about me that hasn't already been said. Either way, it doesn't matter. In other words, the worst I can do is to be blasted all over the country, just like I was last January. But ...
Aaron Kohn: Jack, let me say something. I have no curiosity about this thing. I'm only concerned about the kind of power, of growth, that is projected itself into this community.
Jack Martin: In other words, and this man ...
Aaron Kohn: Now listen to me, I'm not going to talk anymore about it. You got your own decision to make. All I am saying is, you know, you have to spout philosophy from time to time.
Jack Martin: No, I'm not.
Aaron Kohn: There's some very fundamental realities about the way things add up when they come to some ultimate end or conclusion.
Jack Martin: Yeah.
Aaron Kohn: For Christ's sake, if you know anything, tell it. Tell it all and tell it truthfully. Then, whichever, we're more likely to come to an end result in this thing in which there won't be people unjustly hurt.
Jack Martin: Well, if I give this man the interview and they air it. Without doubt, it'll be the beginning of the end of Garrison. It's about ...
Aaron Kohn: Well, you don't know whether the beginning or end of anything. The only question ...
Jack Martin: If I get on their thing and I tell the truth about things, or what you believe to be the truth anyway, would you, and Garrison jumps on me in retaliation, will you, will you give me some support?
Aaron Kohn: If it's the truth, yes.
Jack Martin: [pause] Well, that's all I want to know.
Aaron Kohn: If it's the truth, but stop playing games, Martin.
Jack Martin: I'm not playing games. You think I am playing games with you now?
Aaron Kohn: No, I don't think you are right now, but you have a tendency to go for moments of sincerity and long periods of playing games.
Jack Martin: Well, there's no mental gymnastics.
Aaron Kohn: All I can tell is, and I don't know what it is you know and I am not going to ask you what you know. Whatever it is, if you believe it to be the truth, tell it.
Jack Martin: All right.
Aaron Kohn: I'll talk to you.
Jack Martin: Ok, bye bye.
Second phone call: (13:50)
Female Voice: Hello.
Jack Martin: Is Steve [Plotkin, Martin's attorney] awake?
Female Voice: Yes, he's in the shower.
Jack Martin: Oh, my goodness. I'll call him back in a little bit. I've got to talk to him before he gets away this morning.
Female Voice: OK.
Jack Martin: Thank you, ma'am.
Third phone call: (14:32)
Female Voice: Hello.
Jack Martin: Is Steve out of the shower yet.
Female Voice: Yeah, one minute.
[pause]
Jack Martin: Come on, Steve. Two minutes to get to the damn phone. Hello.
Steve Plotkin: Hello.
Jack Martin: Hello, Steve.
Steve Plotkin: Yeah, Jack.
Jack Martin: Look, Rick Townley has called me five or six times. You know, he's with WDSU. Of course, my spy system tells me they are about ready to do a narrating of the beginning and ending of Garrison. Which is all right with me, they've given me a fit too. There's some things that I haven't told you, that without a doubt, I can give Mr. Garrison a fit, twice as bad as Mr. Novel, if I did. I'd really do a job, man, I would bring one other person in on it, and perhaps two. However, I could probably wind up by suing Garrison ...
Steve Plotkin: Wind up by shooting?
Jack Matin: Suing him. Suing, suing just as Novel did. I didn't realize you'd go that far with it, and for Novel. However, if I do this, I don't want to be standing all alone like a pimple on a horse tit, you know. What's your, what's your advice on this thing where it stands now?
Steve Plotkin: Well, I don't know what NBC is going to do. I know that they'd shoot some kind of film, documentary ...
Jack Martin: Just a minute, there's somebody at ... Well, anyway, anyway, the doorbell rang and the boy went downstairs. I didn't hear any answer. The thing is, I can give him a big fit, but at the same time, Garrison is going to retaliate, you know that.
Steve Plotkin: Well, I don't know enough about it, Jack. I'm still in that damn lawsuit, and I'm [garbled] at 9:30. I just don't know what to tell you to do.
Jack Martin: Well, I've got to talk to Rick. I'm going to call him at nine o'clock.
Steve Plotkin: You have to tell me something a little more specifically of what you want, what you intend to say, and whether or not it's going to impact Garrison. As far as you being sued, use your judgment ...
Jack Martin: No.
Steve Plotkin: The question is do you want to sue Garrison?
Jack Martin: Yeah, after all, if he hadn't started this nonsense and started leaning, after all, when they yank you into the D.A.'s office, they're leaning on you, you know. And if he hadn't started all this thing, I would have never, probably that report would never have been published nationally, I'd have never been in the position I'm in today. The whole thing would have died a quiet death, as it was intended to die that way, you know. But he had to exploit the death of the President, apparently, and started up. And naturally, he was released, or had been released even prior to the initiation of the investigation, his initiation of this thing, you know, and been released prior to the initiation of the investigation. Nothing was ever said. If he hadn't started, I would never have been the recipient of the publicity I have had, to start with. And so I think I have a helluva good deal against him and as much as my life as been very unpleasant since then, I think I've got, just as Mr. Novel had, I've got some ... I've got some right to compensation from not only Mr. Garrison, but also from some of his backers, as much as this thing is not -- he's not totally backed up by state funds, you see.
Steve Plotkin: Hmm. mmm.
Jack Martin: The State government isn't involved except for his, the misuse of his position, as it were. And I didn't, I didn't realize that you were that, going that strong, even in defense of Novel, you understand, until this thing was announced last night.
Steve Plotkin: Well, Jack, listen, I'm going to have to run on you.
Jack Martin: Well, you think if I come up strong enough that NBC will help me out, because without -- this thing has cost my wife and I everything that we had, the money that we laid away, the redo the house, renovate ...
Steve Plotkin: Excuse me. Yeah.
Jack Martin: What I was trying to say is we're totally broke, and I'm totally relying upon her for support, and she's afraid of the fact she may lose her little job over the thing. And furthermore, I am definitely afraid that if I, if I do talk to these people and blow the whistle on the man, in any way, shape or form, he's gonna retaliate. And I'll be standing out all by myself, like a pimple on a horse tit.
Steve Plotkin: Well, Novel is all by himself. He's been standing all alone.
Jack Martin: Yes, but I mean, they've been, somebody's been taking care of this boy,
Steve Plotkin: Not really.
Jack Martin: Well, he's not working and he hasn't got that much money. I mean...
Steve Plotkin: Well, he sold his interest in the Jamaican Village. He has no money, He's just living on nothing.
Jack Martin: And he was probably in debt with TACK [?} and everybody else on that too. You know, you know how these restaurant people are -- a bar room owner -- Hell, I know a whole bunch of them, you know. They're in debt up to their ears. So on the surface it makes it look like they're very solid, and have a bunch of assets. But you know, you know how they are borrowing off the pinball man, the jukebox man, as it were, and everybody else. With the liquor people, what's on the surface isn't necessarily true behind the scenes, and in many respects, I know people that look like they are making their $100 a day and they're spending it. Novel wasn't a frugal young man in any respect. Let's just face it, he played and he played big. He was subsidizing other business interests with his Jamaican Inn and vice versa. The guy, he was on a shoestring in many ways, much as I am, but I've been enduring five months of a lot of crap, and I got a wife and kid too.
Steve Plotkin: Right. You like kids?
Jack Martin: Yeah, they're little monsters. Aren't they?
Steve Plotkin: He's talking to me ... he's sitting here.
Jack Martin: Yeah. You're looking at another me, in other words. That's the way you feel, isn't it?
Steve Plotkin: Yeah.
Jack Martin: You can look and see another you way on back.
Steve Plotkin: Let me put the phone -- just say something, so, he's never heard the phone before.
Jack Martin: All right, OK. Hello there. Hello there. Young Plotkin, how are you? Hello.
Steve Plotkin: He sat up laughing, he looked into the phone.
Jack Martin: Yeah, he heard the voice.
Steve Plotkin: Say something again.
Jack Martin: Hello. Hello. How are you? Is it a beautiful morning?
Steve Plotkin: He's ... holding the phone against his ear.
Jack Martin: They go for it. You'll have a hard time keeping him off ... Steve, what I'm getting at is let's be honest with one another. I think that NBC might make - I'm gonna ask Rick to come over to the house this morning. He asked me to call him, for sure, at nine o'clock this morning, which I intend to do. He gave me his hotline number. And I'd like to sit down and talk with the boy, off the damn record, where he can't prove pro or con, you understand?
Steve Plotkin: huh.
Jack Martin: About our interview, and then have a chance to talk with you in person, and before I do anything, But I want to see what they're gonna do for Jack.
Steve Plotkin: Well ...
Jack Martin: If they'll, if they're willing to come up with a little bit, as I'm certain they've done with others, and then maybe back me up. And they guarantee that they will back me up in the event there's retaliation on me. I'm willing to, I'm willing to go along with it. But I'm so broke now that if I get hit anyway, I'll never be able to defend myself. I've got nothing.
Steve Plotkin: I understand. I don't know if NBC is paying any money on this stuff, because I don't know what they're doing and neither has Novel [Gordon] told me.
Jack Martin: Yeah.
Steve Plotkin: But, I'll be .. I know their big man's [Walter Sheridan] in town.
Jack Martin: Well, that's good.
Steve Plotkin: They got the authority right here. Well, finally
Jack Martin: I talked to Aaron Kohn this morning, prior to talking with you, and he said that he, if I would talk with him and tell the truth and so on and so forth, as undoubtedly, as Novel has done, that I wouldn't be standing alone, as far as he was concerned, you see, and I didn't mention your name at all. I thought it'd be best to talk, to talk with you and see what your thoughts on the matter are. And I'm gonna call, tentatively, I'm gonna call Rick [Townley] and ask him to come over to the house and chat with him, and then I'll try to see you sometime this evening.
Steve Plotkin: Okay.
Jack Martin: What time will you be in the office?
Steve Plotkin: About five o'clock.
Jack Martin: About five, well I'm gonna call or chat with you in person ...
Steve Plotkin: Okay.
Jack Martin ... and tell you what happened.
Steve Plotkin: Fine.
Jack Martin: Would you entertain such a thing? I mean ..
Steve Plotkin: I'll talk with him and see exactly where we stand.
Jack Martin: Okay.
Steve Plotkin: It's premature to make a decision.
Jack Martin: Okay.
The call ends and Martin starts some narration: (25:26)
Jack Martin: End of conversation with Mr. Steven Plotkin, attorney of law, and Mr. Aaron M. Kohn of the Metropolitan Crime Commission, this Thursday morning, between the hours of seven and eight, May the 25th, 1967. This is the onset of an investigation to expose those who would defame a state investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy. End of transmission.
The next phone call is to Rick Townley of WDSU: (27:46)
Receptionist: Good morning, WDSU.
Jack Martin: Yes, is Mr. Rick Townley in the newsroom, please, Ma'am.
Receptionist: Thank you.
Jack Martin: Hello.
Reporter: News.
Jack Martin: is Rick there?
Reporter: No, he hasn't come in yet.
Jack Martin: I tried to call him on that hotline phone, you got it off the hook, apparently.
Reporter: The hotline phone?
Jack Martin: Yeah, that 523-5033 line.
Reporter: Let me see, I'll have to check on that, maybe it's out of order or what the hell's wrong.
Jack Martin: Yeah, when will he be in, son? He told me to call him around nine this morning.
Reporter: Well, I don't really know, I don't keep track of him.
Jack Martin: You work there, don't you?
Reporter: Yeah.
Jack Martin: Well, as a plainer [?] or somebody in that could give me some information?
Reporter: Vern Robins, just a minute.
Vern Robins: Hello.
Jack Martin: Hello, Vern..
Vern Robins: Yeah.
Jack Martin: This is Jack Martin, Vern. When will Rick be in?
Vern Robins: Uh ...
Jack Martin: He told me to call him around nine this morning.
Vern Robins: Yeah, well he should be in any minute. I just walked in myself.
Jack Martin: Oh, I see. I'm just a little premature.
Vern Robins: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I tried to call on a 523-5033 number, and it was busy.
Vern Robins: Right, I got a [garbled]
Jack Martin: Yeah, I know about that.
Vern Robins: I'll expect he'll be in any minute. Would you like to leave your number and have him call you?
Jack Martin: He knows my number, I prefer to call him.
Vern Robins: Alright.
Jack Matin: Okay.
Vern Robins: I'd give him about fifteen minutes.
Jack Martin: Ok, sir. Thank you, sir. Bye bye.
Jack Martin then calls Rick Townley again: (29:55)
Woman's Voice: Hello.
Jack Martin: Is Rick Townley there, please?
Woman's Voice: No, Rick's, let me check.
Woman's Voice: You know where Rick is?
Woman's Voice: He's out. We don't know how to get in touch.
Jack Martin: Well, he told me to call him around nine this morning, which I'm trying to do. And, my name is Martin, and I, if he calls me back, I may not be here.
Woman's Voice: Well, gosh, he's out working on something special, and I just don't know ...
Jack Martin: Well, he's pursued me several days, and then he said call him around nine, nine-thirty this morning, which I'm doing. You know I'd like to have some kind of idea of when he'll return, or when you expect him. You must know about when he should be back.
Woman's Voice: Well, no we don't, because he's working on a special deal. Mr. Martin, is there any place that he can reach you in case we can get him?
Jack Martin: He'll talk to me at my convenience. I'll be very explicit about it. They watch me. He's chasing me, you know. He'll deal with me on my terms. I want to chat with him in person. I want to initially talk to him on the phone, and don't play chess with me dear.
Woman's Voice: I'm not playing chess with you. I'm telling you we don't know where the guy is, and I'll make every effort to get in touch.
Jack Martin: I'd appreciate it. Would you tell him to make himself available, and if he's not at the office, please leave a number where I can reach him, because I've got -- he mentioned that his schedule is very crowded today, and mine is too. I mean, believe me, it is. And I'm trying to bend over backwards to cooperate with this boy, and I want, I want to help him. You know, you understand? But at the same time, I can't foul up my whole day.
Woman's Voice: As soon as we get in touch with him, we will have a message here as to ...
Jack Martin: I'd appreciate it, very, very much, and I'm sorry if I seem a little antagonistic to you.
Woman's Voice: Alright, thank you.
Jack Martin: Because I'm a mean ole guy ...
Jack Martin tries Townley again: (32:46)
Woman's Voice: Good morning, WDSU.
Jack Martin: Yeah, Mr. Rick Townley in News, please.
Male Voice: News.
Jack Martin: Mr. Rick Townley, please.
Male Voice: He's not here, he'll be in about noon.
Jack Martin: He'll be in about noon. Fine, well that relieves all frustration then. I'm sorry to bother you, this old man Martin, I had to go out. There are only certain times I can talk at the house, you know, because of my family and I was kind of upset that I couldn't reach him this morning. I told him I'd try to reach him about nine in the morning.
Male Voice: [garbled].
Jack Martin: Alright, he'll be in about noon, then. All right. Well, tell him I called, will you be sure and do that? That old man Martin called him and it was about this thing tonight, and I want to chat with him first, you know.
Male Voice: Most definitely.
Jack Martin: Mighty fine, sir. Thank you very kindly.
Martin finally reaches Townley: (33:51)
Jack Martin: You've been on the fire?
Rick Townley: No, I've worked.
Jack Martin: Well, look, I'd like to chat with you.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: In person, if possible.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I don't know, I know either way I go on this thing -- they can't say anything about me that hasn't already been said.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: So ..
Rick Townley: The best thing is to sit down and go out and tell what you know about, you know ...
Jack Martin: Well, wait a minute, well, look, there's a lot more to the thing.
Rick Townley: We don't want to get into all the side issues of what you know about the case ...
Jack Martin: No,
Rick Townley: ... and all this stuff, you know, the evidence in the case ...
Jack Martin: You know, the only thing is, there's a lot more to it than you know.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I might sit down and talk with you. It depends on what you want. And I don't want to be sitting out like a pimple on a horse tit.
Rick Townley: Yeah. well I would be glad to talk to you. I'm gonna have a, I've got to leave town for a while this afternoon. I'm probably gonna be back around seven-thirty or so, if you want to come in, it would have to be after eight o'clock.
Jack Martin: Well, I'd like to try to chat with you at the house. I can run my wife and kid in the other part of the house, and you and I can sit here and chat.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I want to talk with you here at the house before we got together at the studio.
Rick Townley: Sure. We don't want to do it in the studio anyways. I'd rather ... anything in this case ... I'd rather do it outside the studio, to tell the truth, we can do it in a hotel room, or ...
Jack Martin: Here's the thing. I'll be perfectly frank with you. I could, I can do a helluva lot more than Gordon Novel has done. I could, I could probably prove everything Gordon Novel says and give the man [Jim Garrison] a shit fit. But I talked to Aaron Kohn this morning, earlier.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I was counting on speaking to you at nine, so ...
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: And unfortunately, that didn't work out.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: And I spoke to Steven Plotkin this morning before I left the house.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: And I don't know what you spoke to anybody since then or not?
Rick Townley: No, I haven't.
Jack Martin: But, I could probably bring several people in on this thing, besides myself, to substantiate what I say. You understand me?
Rick Townley: Yeah, well, I don't know specific in what area, but I think probably in your point of view, in regard to you, the main thing we want, because we are trying to piece the thing together, going back to how it all started, and what, you know, where it had led. I think since you were in on the initial thing back in sixty-three, that's mostly the area, and then anything that you might have to add to that, in terms of what happened ...
Jack Martin: Not necessarily that, Rick, here's the thing. I think you receive what I'm getting at here. I could blow, I could blow, I could blow Garrison's whole case up right now.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I don't know whether you knew that or not. I could do ten times the amount of damage that Gordon Novel did, or is doing. And that's what I was talking to Steve about, following up for the suit, you know?
Rick Townley: Yeah, we don't want to get off into the various theories, or anything like that.
Jack Martin: There's no theory involved here, it's what actually ...
Rick Townley: I'm talking about now, its whether, he's, you know, get into the CIA and all that stuff. We definitely ..,
Jack Martin: Oh no, I'm don't even talk about CIA.
Rick Townley: [laughs]
Jack Martin: What the hell do they got to do with it?
Rick Townley: It really ... what we're interested in, the main thrust of our program ...
Jack Martin: Anything, any connection I might have had with CIA or the Cubans, it's irrelevant and immaterial to what I have to say. You understand?
Rick Townley: Mainly what you have to say ...
Jack Martin: Anything I had to with the Cubans is between myself, the United States government, and Jesus Christ.
Rick Townley: Right, right.
Jack Martin: And Christ ain't gonna say a word, and I'm sure the United States government aren't gonna say anything.
Rick Townley: Sure, I know that, and that's why I say we rest your mind on that score. We don't even want, we're not concerned about that. Mainly, we're concerned about the validity of this investigation, you now?
Jack Martin: Well, what if we could blow that all to hell? Are you interested?
Rick Townley: Well, I don't know in what way you're talking about. It's really hard to talk in limbo here.
Jack Martin: Yeah. I know, the telephone it's a bad bitch. You know, I'm reasonably certain that my phone is not tapped for the simple reason I have it -- every morning I call the phone company and they put the meter on ...
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: ... and then, if you notice, I play my radio in the background, and if it is tapped, they're having a crap fit. Now, believe what I tell you.
Rick Townley: Right.
Jack Martin: And another thing is, I usually turn on WTIX every night, taking dial four or five, some number on the phone, and I lay my receiver next to the radio, and it plays all night, and they have to listen to about twelve hours of music.
Rick Townley: Pretty bad music, too.
Jack Martin: Yeah, that's right. That's why I put it on one of these all-night stations, and if anybody's tapping that phone, they got to listen to all that tape.
Rick Townley: Yes.
Jack Martin: And I think they gave up on it, if they were. I thought that.
Rick Townley: Yes.
Jack Martin: I know I haven't got anything, any of this hocus pocus stuff about CIA. We know that's ... anything I might have had, any connections with Banister, or I might have had with the Cubans, and with Grady Durham and the rest of the fellas, it's irrelevant, and immaterial, I mean
Rick Townley: It has nothing to do with whether Garrison's got a case or not.
Jack Martin: Well,
Rick Townley: It does have something to do with it ...
Jack Martin: Well, it's Garrison's, Garrison's dream, you see. But here's what ... I could tell you how the whole thing developed ...
Rick Townley: Right.
Jack Martin: And, who assisted in his motivation and I could virtually substantiate what I have to say with corroborative testimony.
Rick Townley: Right.
Jack Martin: I'm going to lay it right on the line, Rick. If I do this, Garrison is going to retaliate on me ...
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: And I wanted assurance from Kohn, this morning, which he gave me, that I wouldn't be sitting out there like a sore thumb and defenseless. Now, I've been broken financially on this, this whole thing, in the past five or six months anyway, and I spoke to Steve [Plotkin] and told him we can go ahead with this thing. Well, I want him to back me up in a lawsuit again, and an injunction against Garrison to keep him from messing with me or my family. And the same token, I think that if I give you the story on this thing, the whole picture on it, verbally, before we cut the .. before we cut the picture, you know.
Rick Townley: Right.
Jack Martin: I want some assurance from you people that you'll take care of little old Jack, too, you know.
Rick Townley: It depends in what way, we have to be very careful along those lines, you know. As long as you are cooperating with us, that's the best protection you got.
Jack Martin: Here's another thing, see, well, I know, let's not kid each other, just like I told Steve this morning. He said, "well, I'm not sure NBC will go behind you." Yes, I said, "don't shit me, I know that Jamaica Inn [a club that Gordon Novel sold} and I know Gordon was -- he was not solvent. He was in hock up to his neck on that thing with the jukebox people and some other people. And I said, I know who's carrying him. I said, let's, let's, let's drop the naive -- I'm not as naive as you take me to be. I know some things you don't, Steve. And I said, there's a lot about this I haven't told you. And so I'm gonna meet with Steve about five o'clock this evening and discuss this whole thing with him, and personally in his office, you understand? And, of course, that's got nothing to do with you and I, but I want him to know what I am up to, at least I am honest with my lawyer. And the thing is that I have suffered financially. This man jumps down my throat, I got no money for bail bonds or anything else. And I am sure that I could ...
Rick Townley: Let me tell you flat on this, Jack ... they're not going to get themselves in a position where it looks like ... they're paying people off.
Jack Martin: I can back all this stuff up. Here's, look, look, let's not be sophistic with one another --we do business with thieves together. Let's lay it on the line. But, I'll tell you this much -- there's nothing I can't corroborate on this thing, and I'm going to end up backing up the polygraph, just like your boy Novel [Gordon] did, see.
Rick Townley: Well, they're not gonna pay for information. But I think the fact that you cooperate with them is going to make them want to try to prevent you from being harassed, in any way they can.
Jack Martin: Well, if you think your guys or Phelan [James] or any of these people have, had something by the time I get through, you now you got some, there won't be any horseshit.
Rick Townley: Well, so we are not talking in a vacuum. why don't we get together person to person?
Jack Martin: That's right. sit down in the living room, you see. You know, here's another thing I want to apologize for, is the house here. I had been in the throes of renovation here at the house about the time this thing hit last December, and, pardon me, we had set money aside for paint and things like that, and I never got the opportunity to complete the living room and refinish the furniture and the upholstery and all that. So, if you walk into a place that looks -- you see plaster patches in it, don't be surprised, you know.
Rick Townley: You think, as a matter of mutual ...
Jack Martin: I'd rather meet here at the house, I'd rather meet here at the house, for the simple damn reason -- there's no chance of any bugs or anything like that.
Rick Townley: Well ...
Jack Martin: I'm leery of all that nonsense.
Rick Townley: Well, I am too, Jack. [garbled}
Jack Martin: You're perfectly welcome to bring a debugger along if you want to or inspect the place at your leisure.
Rick Townley: No, I don't need to do that, cause if I, I could bug you just as easily ...
Jack Martin: That's right. You could have an FM mic in your sock. You know that's the best place to carry it. I know this, and you'll be picking me up with a receiver in the car and putting it on tape. Or, you could -- if I met you in your car, it could be bugged, you know. I mean, I'm real hep, dad, on this. I'm not, Merriman [Smith] was wrong, I'm not a wire tap expert, but I'm hep enough to it, and I know what some of the ramifications are. I'm not going to pull any, I'm not going to pull any crap on your fellas, and at the same token, I don't want you to, I'm laying it on the line, you know, this is strictly on the level, but this thing has gone far enough, and I want to sit down and talk turkey, you know. And I think we should, I think we should, and I think you'll see the whole picture by the time I'm through this evening. It will take me about twenty minutes to tell you exactly what happened in the whole thing.
Rick Townley: Okay, well you name a time and I'll be there.
Jack Martin: Well, say about eight o'clock, would that be alright?
Rick Townley: Well, no, I want to try to do this filming tonight, Jack. We're on a tight schedule, and these people who are going to do the filming may not have time in the morning. Can we meet this afternoon and discuss the ground rules on it, and then set our filming for tonight at eight. So, let's do it that way.
Jack Martin: Well, you see, here's the thing. I delayed going out, leaving the house here, till I could reach you today.
Rick Townley: Yeah. I was not, I don't want, because of the time problem I don't want to have a discussion tonight, and then set another filming. I'd like to go and get the whole thing out of the way.
Jack Martin: I want' a clear-cut understanding with you guys what you're going to do to help me, you know. I want to sit down with you and talk about it.
Rick Townley: Right, well, this ... though, if we're going to do the filming, I've got to make preparations, and I've got to understand if we want to do the filming, I'm trying to set my schedule around this. We could talk in advance, then, of course, then we can be set to go ahead and do the filming tonight. If you're tied up this afternoon ...
Jack Martin: Well, that's it, I stayed here, I went around. You weren't there at nine. this damn fire, I realized that. What happened, you called just now, you see. well, I got some stuff I have to do this afternoon, and I had to, Steve told me to see him.
Rick Townley: Well, I definitely won't get it, go ahead. If we're going to film, why don't we do it tonight? That's the main thing. Now we can set the filming for a little later, if you want to do that. Say set the filming at nine or nine-thirty and then. I'll come to your house, talk to you, and then we go from there ...
Jack Martin: You see after I talk with you, I want to talk with Steve [Plotkin] again, see. I've got to see him, and then I got to talk with you. I got, I want to talk with him too.
Rick Townley: Well, this sounds like an extended situation.
Jack Martin: Well, that's the hell of it, see. Steve, I haven't been able to get with Steve, I haven't been able to get with Steve now for three days. He's been tied up in something, lawsuit in court, you know that, don't you? And it's been like pulling teeth. If I hadn't caught him in his house, and then he didn't have any time to talk to me then. And I'll I could do is give him a rough synopsis, you know.
Rick Townley: I just don't want to elongate this thing, because if you definitely feel like it ...
Jack Martin: Well, I'll go with you, it may be in the morning before we can get around to it, see. That's what I was going to say, God damnit, and these people are gonna leave, and that's a hell of a mess, you know?
Rick Townley: Yeah. Now, if you want to do this, we can do it this way. I think the NBC people are here, and they're the ones that you're going to have to talk turkey with as well, so.
Jack Martin: I'll talk turkey with you and you take care of them, and if they want it, if they want, we'll have a clean-cut understanding in our little interview this afternoon or this evening. And if they want it, fine. If not, they don't want it, the hell with them. But I want to talk to one person.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: I want to talk to one person and tell one person what I got to say, and that's you.
Rick Townley: Right.
Jack Martin: I don't want to have to repeat my story, or I don't want to have to tell this thing in front of witnesses.
Rick Townley: Right, well, alright ...
Jack Martin: If I tell you something, if I tell you something, that's your word against mine.
Rick Townley: That's right. But now, here's the thing, I want to, if we meet at eight o'clock let's say, I still want to be able to go get the filming done tonight, because I can't just keep stretching these people out ...
Jack Martin: When you hear what I got to say, I don't think they'll be any question with what they'll have to say.
Rick Townley: Yeah, alright, I'll go on that presumption. But I still, if there's any way possible, I'd like to go into filming tonight.
Jack Martin: I thought, when I get through talking with you, I'm reasonably certain that, if they have to, they'll be willing to wait a couple of days together, you know what I mean?
Rick Townley: No, that may be true but at this point, what I'm doing is keeping our whole film crew ...
Jack Martin: Because I'm going to have to get on the phone and call long distance to one guy that I know of, I'm gonna have to reach him, and he'll have to call me back, and I'm gonna have to discuss this with him to get him to cooperate with you fellas, which I know he'll do ...
Rick Townley: Well ...
Jack Martin: Because all the shit's gonna come back on my back, you understand? It ain't gonna come on his back.
Rick Townley: Well, the point is ... at this point, there is a limited area of what we want from you. I may change my mind after I talk to you.
Jack Martin: You're gonna. You're gonna. I told you I was going to blow the man's whole case, didn't I? I'm not kidding with you.
Rick Townley: Well, we're still talking about .. let's do it this way.
Jack Martin: I've got to talk to you in person tonight.
Rick Townley: Alright, let's do it this way.
Jack Martin: And as far as bugs are concerned, I'm as leery as you are, you know.
Rick Townley: Let's do it this way. I will come, I'm gonna have, I'm gonna have myself, I've got to get, man this costs a fantastic amount to keep these people sitting here. Somebody was just assigned to do this one.
Jack Martin: I know that.
Rick Townley: A good one.
Jack Martin: I'll tell you what you can call it, when you're through with me and the people I can bring in on this thing, you can call it the end of Garrison, and it will be it too.
Rick Townley: Well, I still want to try.
Jack Martin: My perpetuity won't be worth a plug nickel after I'm through. Of course, you guys are going to give it to me in the neck anyway. I'm going to be the shadow in the background, whether it's on film, it'll be both film and narration, But, so I don't, I don't give a shit.
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: What's been said about me and what public opinion is of me has already been established. There's not a helluva lot more you can do. But when I'm through with it, it'll wash the whole goddamned case up. When I get through talking with you, dad, it'll be, you'll be willing to break your broadcast and put it on ...
Rick Townley: Well ....
Jack Martin: You know these special features? you know these special bulletins?
Rick Townley: Yeah.
Jack Martin: Well, I'll tell you, I mean, you think that Gordon Novel gives you some shit, when I get through it'll blow the whole goddamn deal.
Rick Townley: Well, now look, let's do it this way. I'll meet with you at eight, by myself. I'll let you make whatever phone call you want to make, what have you. I want to keep that film crew standing by to film tonight.
Jack Martin: Well, you see, I have to get ahold of a man's ex-wife here to find out where he is, then she's gonna have to call him, and then he's gonna have to call me back, LD [long distance].
Rick Townley: Can't you do this in advance?
Jack Martin: It's almost impossible, it's almost, it'll be impossible, until I talk with you and we have some kind of an understanding.
Rick Townley: Well, I can't make an understanding with you.
Jack Martin: Well, that's it. You're gonna then have to talk to the NBC people and I have to know that the big man's [Walter Sheridan] in town right now, so that isn't going to be too difficult for you, is it?
Rick Townley: The point I'm trying to make ...
Jack Martin: In other words, you talk to him, and you go to him in person and tell him the deal, You. .. I know it and you know it that they stay in the Royal Orleans, I imagine that's where Merriman [Smith} stay, and the rest of the fellas stay that come in there from NBC. And, in fact, that's where they tried to get me to film this bit before. So, I imagine I'm just ... this is just conclusion with me. It's [garbled] you know. So, I imagine you're not gonna have to run very far, and the taxicabs are pretty smooth nowadays. They get you there in a hurry.
Rick Townley: I still want to try to set it up to do it tonight, if we go, and I'll be able to tell you at the end of our discussion whether we got anything to talk about or not.
Jack Martin: Well, I know we have.
Rick Townley: And, uh, but I still want to keep that crew standing by to film. I don't care if it's delayed until 11 o'clock, you know, You ought to be able to get ahold of the guy, on the side, but I'll know after I talk to you better, whether there's anything to talk about.
Jack Martin: I got plenty to talk about that, and I think you'll agree with it.
Rick Townley: Alright, let's do this then.
Jack Martin: Why don't you give me a buzz at eight o'clock and confirm that -- tell me you're on your way.
Rick Townley: I'll be there. You just tell be where to be and I'll make sure I am back in time, unless something happens on my flight back, or something like that, then I'll ...
Jack Martin: Alright, if you're gonna ...
Rick Townley: The filming is definitely at this point.
Jack Martin: Well ...
Rick Townley: I want to call, and then can't get you in. We're losing half a night.
Jack Martin: No, I'll be here, my wife, my kid, and I will be here this evening.
Rick Townley: Alright. 8 PM at what address?
Jack Martin: 1836 1/2 Esplanade, 1836 1/2 Esplanade. It's a big white house on the corner of Esplanade and North Prieur.
Rick Townley: Is it an apartment or a house?
Jack Martin: Well, it's a ... I have the whole upstairs of the house over the Marino cleaning shop. There's a little Marino's cleaner in the corner, and it's a big white house at the corner of North Prieur and Esplanade.
Rick Townley: Alright.
Jack Martin: And, you'll see the entrance to the cleaning shop, and then on the other side of the front of the house, there's an entrance to a side apartment, the people that live downstairs. My entrance is in the center, and it's kind of a little alcove there, and where there's a door there, and you ring the damn doorbell. If you don't see a light on in that hall downstairs it's because one of the lights is burnt out. I have to come downstairs to turn it on, and the reason I don't necessarily do that is because the downstairs hasn't been redone yet. I had the wallpaper pulled off, and I had a hadn't have a chance to plaster down there yet.
Rick Townley: Well, I will be there at eight o'clock then, and we'll talk ...
Jack Martin: Ring the doorbell and I'll let you in and we'll come up here and sit in my living room and we'll have a chat.
Rick Townley: Alright.
Jack Martin: Okay.
Rick Townley: I'll see you then.
Jack Martin: Okay. Mighty fine.
End of the phone call. Narration by Jack Martin:
Jack Martin: Telephone conversation, recorded, a call back. He called me. Rick Townley with WDSU, NBC, at approximately 11:20, 11:40, in the morning of May 25, 1967.
Jack Martin: This is conclusion on the current tape, being conducted interviewing Mr. Louis Ivon, Detective Louis Ivon, New Orleans Police Department, assigned the D. A.'s office. The speaker is Jack Martin. This information here is to substantiate the fact that various people connected with a Garrison probe are being bought off by NBC. You hear that? Are being bought off by NBC or other persons involved, and there has been some [?} to corroborate this fact. When Mr. Townley calls at my house this evening, I intend to hang a story on him, a figment of imagination with several half-truths in it, that he'll believe what I have to say. To see whether or not, they'll buy or pay money or make promises for some type of something in compensation for this, and this is strictly an investigation to prove for Mr. Garrison and the court, the people, that what he's doing is absolutely right, and that these other people are trying to influence and entirely impede a legitimate and legal investigation. Anything I say to Mr. Townley can be taken with a grain of salt, because this is strictly a story that I'll have to hang on him and this will be transcribed, or we will attempt to transcribe this on a tape, which will be planted in a couch in my living room at the time he visits me at eight o'clock this evening. Is that sufficient. Very well.
Martin's dictation says it all.
There is another two tapes of Martin talking to these people again, and even a phone call with Walter Sheridan. It's more of the same -- I can sink Garrison but give me some money or promises. Martin also tries to get a preview of the NBC documentary but they refuse. At one point, Martin talks about his fear of being taped, and then says that he would never tape people because he didn't have the equipment! You can find that about the forty minute mark of this tape.
At the end of the tape, Martin does some more dictation, and, one again, admits he is working for Garrison trying to entrap the NBC reporters: (53:50)
After this last conversation with Aaron Kohn - I'm using this as a narrator for the remainder of this tape, pursuant to instructions from detective Louis Ivon in the District Attorney's office, I pull out all stops. He gave me, more or less, a verbal carte blanche to hang any type of particular story upon these people to ensure confidence in their activities, which I endeavored to do. At no such time was I ever paid by the District Attorney or any of his aids for my cooperation, or was I ever intimidated. The contents of these conversations on this tape are relative only to a sales job, more or less, that I'm doing upon these people, that we feel are resorting to exploitive measure to gather information to be used against the District Attorney and illegally so. And his good probe. It appears in every way that these people, they approached me for the past few weeks, first described through various people that knew me, and this man Rick Townley knew, that they're going to use my name, they're going to say this or that or the other thing, with or without my permission or my support or cooperation, which leads me to believe, they led me to believe that the statements that they might use would be derogatory, or not to my best advantage. It is extortion, no matter how you put it. Subsequently, this was the reason for the initiation of such an investigation to prove that these people are using measures, in the case of [Al] Beauboeuf, and perhaps [Gordon] Novel and others, and that these people also have been compensated by Mr. Sheridan of the NBC Television Network and people doing business with them. During the course of ... conversation, I found that Mr. Sheridan was formerly with the Judge Advocate General's office. He was an intelligence officer with the United States Army. Mr. Sheridan is using all of his knowledge and abilities to pressure people in one way or another, as did Mr. Townley. Most of these techniques were used in verbal interview which are not recorded on these tapes. Unfortunately, we were unable to record those personal interviews. That is all.
Actually, it was Jack Martin who was continually phoning Aaron Kohn, Steven Plotkin, Rick Townley, and Walter Sheridan.
Previous Blog Posts on Jack Martin
Steve Roe wrote an in-depth look at Jack Martin.
Links to a audio recording, and a transcript, of a Jim Garrison interview with Jack Martin from December, 1966.
Jack Martin told the HSCA that John Dean, of Watergate fame, framed Jim Garrison.
An early interview with Martin and Lewis.
Why did Guy Banister Pistol-Whip Jack Martin? Here's the real reason why Banister pistol-whipped Jack Martin
A transcript of a Pershing Gervais interview with Jack Martin from December, 1966.
Jack Martin helped spread the rumor that Oswald had David Ferrie's library card.
This never happened. This post includes Jack Martin's interview with the HSCA.